tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post3353611292331476182..comments2024-02-15T22:31:01.027-07:00Comments on Business SOA: Want to be cool? Learn REST. Want a career? Learn WSSteve Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18324989580856894788noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-30642901180547477222009-06-16T02:36:16.391-07:002009-06-16T02:36:16.391-07:00Its a very nice blog for...
architects in bangalor...Its a very nice blog for...<br /><a href="http://www.architectsban.webs.com/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">architects in bangalore</a> ,<a href="http://www.seekangroup.com/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"> architects in bangalore </a> ,<a href="http://www.interiordesignersbangalore.com/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"> interior designers in Bangalore</a> ,<a href="http://Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-36784237644455157002008-01-18T17:55:00.000-07:002008-01-18T17:55:00.000-07:00Oops, forgot to check the "email me follow up comm...Oops, forgot to check the "email me follow up comments" box, so I'm doing that now.Mike Schinkelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10179220974959188680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-17487678804022591562008-01-18T17:54:00.000-07:002008-01-18T17:54:00.000-07:00Steve, you use IBM as one of your justifications, ...Steve, you use IBM as one of your justifications, yet IBM employs a vocal REST advocate in Joe Gregorio (http://bitworking.org/) and they just hired Damien Katz (http://ajaxian.com/archives/apache-couchdb-congrats-to-ibm-and-damian-katz) so he could work full time on CouchDB, a fully RESTful system. <BR/><BR/>I think what you have in IBM is a company milking what they have in WS-* because that Mike Schinkelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10179220974959188680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-82996729997892781892007-02-28T12:01:00.000-07:002007-02-28T12:01:00.000-07:00People. You use the right tool for the job.REST - ...People. You use the right tool for the job.<BR/><BR/>REST - you have to code XML parsers for the response data every time.<BR/><BR/>WS-* - sure, it's overkill if you use the whole stack, but it's designed for heavy lifting. Either way, being able to generate stubs and value objects from the WSDL in your language of choice is worth every cent.<BR/><BR/>Both are valid. If you want to spend hours Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-61717264655343150962006-12-10T05:19:00.000-07:002006-12-10T05:19:00.000-07:00"I don't see RSS as computer to computer because i..."I don't see RSS as computer to computer because its intent is to get information to people"<br /><br />Ultimately, yes, just like WS-* and computing in general.<br /><br />But RSS is in essence a wrapper around (usually) a HTML content payload, with a bunch of metadata. Not unlike doc/literal SOAP. It *is* designed for computer-computer communication. The metadata in particular makes it amenableDannyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03703352768894605596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-918251589044708932006-12-04T02:49:00.000-07:002006-12-04T02:49:00.000-07:00This is just a stupid posting. "Want a career? Le...This is just a stupid posting. "Want a career? Learn WS". Just because the big 4 say so.<br /><br />I remember when the big vendors said EJB is for everything java server side! Enough said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-55513739495128742002006-12-03T22:34:00.000-07:002006-12-03T22:34:00.000-07:00BEA are fans of both, I guess they don't count tho...BEA are fans of both, I guess they don't count though, being a relative pipsqueak at only $1.2b...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-89200970934733844692006-12-03T08:20:00.000-07:002006-12-03T08:20:00.000-07:00I've had that RESTful blog thing again, but RSS is...I've had that RESTful blog thing again, but RSS isn't really computer to computer, there is a fixed format and its designed to send information to people, not computer to computer. I like RSS as a presentation aggregator its a good lightweight solution, but I don't see RSS as computer to computer because its intent is to get information to people.Steve Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324989580856894788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-35595011239282650302006-12-02T04:55:00.000-07:002006-12-02T04:55:00.000-07:00Wow, you did get some vitriol!
There are quite a...Wow, you did get some vitriol! <br /><br />There are quite a few IBMers amongst Apache Contributors...and Apache is primarily straight (RESTful) HTTP. So it doesn't seem like they have immediate plans to turn everything into WS-*.<br /><br />"WS-* is aimed at computer to computer, HTML is aimed at computer to person (via a browser). Different tools for a different purpose." - sure. But who was Dannyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03703352768894605596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-40309179665685719822006-11-30T11:09:00.000-07:002006-11-30T11:09:00.000-07:00Loving the vitriol... from those that wish to rema...Loving the vitriol... from those that wish to remain anonymous...<br /><br />Anyway lets address a few points<br /><br />1) As I said in my post, REST people talk about Google and Amazon and nothing else... err guys that is exactly what you've just done<br /><br />2) I'm not arguing about technical perfection, I'm just pointing out that WS-* is, and will be, the commercial reality (beyond Google/Steve Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324989580856894788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-10617519246563910932006-11-30T02:11:00.000-07:002006-11-30T02:11:00.000-07:00>> where a series of silver bullets have been prop...>> where a series of silver bullets have been proposed (ERP, EAI, BPM, XP, REST, SOA etc etc) that are really just another set of technology doing the same thing in a slightly different way<br />>> a major reason is that IT becomes obsessed with technology and what can be done rather than what should be done.<br /><br />Great! You just mentioned all the reasons to NOT use WS-* and use REST Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-88871424693834058892006-11-30T01:09:00.000-07:002006-11-30T01:09:00.000-07:00Your book sales must really be tanking, if you are...Your book sales must really be tanking, if you are resorting to nonsensical fear-mongering aimed at the uninformed by attacking something else instead of simply articulating the benefits (and there are some) of WS-* and SOA.<br /><br />Sad...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-37516049025841271302006-11-30T01:02:00.000-07:002006-11-30T01:02:00.000-07:00"If you can create a commercial case for using RES..."If you can create a commercial case for using REST over WS-* that includes TCO and ensures that it works consistently with the other parts of the enterprise then great. The problem is that WS-* will exist in the rest of the enterprise and externally, so REST is optional while WS-* is mandatory."<br /><br />1. Amazon<br /><br />2. It is pretty clear that you do not know what REST is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-81146289599726886002006-11-30T00:56:00.000-07:002006-11-30T00:56:00.000-07:00"The point I'm making isn't that no-one knows LAMP..."The point I'm making isn't that no-one knows LAMP or REST or whatever..."<br /><br />Me and my one-man six-figure+ per year LAMP consulting practice are laughing all the way to the bank at this.<br /><br />You must have been living under a rock for the last 5 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-39099400509864232852006-11-30T00:51:00.000-07:002006-11-30T00:51:00.000-07:00Steve, Amazon and Google already have had more imp...Steve, Amazon and Google already have had more impact than IBM in the last several years.<br /><br />WS-* is a pile of over-engineered, tedious, boring, inefficient CRAP designed by and for people who appreciate complexity for its own sake and pawn this nonsense off as having an exclusive lock on consistent design. <br /><br />There are a few places where you can make a strong case for SOA and Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-3827313326282935402006-11-30T00:39:00.000-07:002006-11-30T00:39:00.000-07:00That post is pure drivel.
Talk to the folks at Am...That post is pure drivel.<br /><br />Talk to the folks at Amazon about REST vs. WS.<br /><br />Or consider some basic economic principals.<br /><br />The amount of overhead associated with WS is simply absurd and unjustifiable in the majority of cases. <br /><br />WS is effectively dead outside of the Ent. Middleware sector, and has been for quite some time.<br /><br />Enjoy your stale kool-aid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-78155172352440098552006-11-29T17:51:00.000-07:002006-11-29T17:51:00.000-07:00tai - extreme seredipity between disconnected node...tai - extreme seredipity between disconnected nodes? And a .com business plan. Please tell me you wouldn't use that approach in a job interview or why trying to get VC funding.<br /><br />Bean - The position we are in is where 80% of IT spend is on Business as Usual, where the majority of projects fail to deliver against the original expectations, and where a series of silver bullets have been Steve Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324989580856894788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-24467028480789660742006-11-28T21:25:00.000-07:002006-11-28T21:25:00.000-07:00>> Engineers absolving themselves of commercial re...>> Engineers absolving themselves of commercial responsibility is just the sort of thing that has got us into this position.<br />- What position and how did engineers absolving commercial responsibility have anything to do with it?<br /><br />>> Engineers should deliver what works and that has to include the commercial considerations rather than architectural purity. <br />- Isn't this exactly Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-19734685723124362672006-11-28T19:24:00.000-07:002006-11-28T19:24:00.000-07:00So the best path would be to:
1. Use WS in day jo...So the best path would be to:<br /><br />1. Use WS in day job for a living.<br />2. Come up with some world-changing service in spare time.<br />3. Build that in REST(-style) for discoverability and scalablity.<br />4. Go IPO.<br />5. GET MONEY FAST!<br /><br />Honestly, SOA vs REST (or WS vs REST) discussion is moot if what you want is non-open (= not open as the Internet/Web) software Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-72325905406184559712006-11-27T05:20:00.000-07:002006-11-27T05:20:00.000-07:00So WS-* becomes just another Frozen Accident in th...So WS-* becomes just another Frozen Accident in the evolution of software which we continue to cling onto long after we've forgottent what it's for?<br /><br />Long live the pissing contest!Antohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12075690003181452889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-90509794380987775222006-11-27T03:29:00.000-07:002006-11-27T03:29:00.000-07:00Anto,
I'm not saying be a sheep (and the REST cro...Anto,<br /><br />I'm not saying be a sheep (and the REST crowd can equally be accused of grass grazing in a similar way to the XP crowd), I'm saying that "good fit" is what matters and that almost all the time WS-* will be a "good fit", not the technically purest or the "best" fit from an engineering perspective but a "good fit". <br /><br />So the default should be "will WS-* work here" and if Steve Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324989580856894788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-1283364448677648582006-11-27T03:20:00.000-07:002006-11-27T03:20:00.000-07:00Now, nobody said anything about engineers absolvin...Now, nobody said anything about engineers absolving themselves of commercial responsibility. Good engineers realise that commercial considerations are one of many important factors which need to be taken into account when making a decision. But they're not the only factor. I've seen so many bad decisions arising from that kind of "let's do it way 'x', because everyone else is doing it that way" (Antohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12075690003181452889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-57444749071878068982006-11-26T14:59:00.000-07:002006-11-26T14:59:00.000-07:00Oh boy, now I've heard it all, the MySQL and PHP/P...Oh boy, now I've heard it all, the MySQL and PHP/Perl guys are claiming Apache as their own...<br /><br /><a href="http://httpd.apache.org/contributors/">Apache Contributors</a> Ummm appears to be quite a few IBMers on there, and quite a few other big companies. I'm not saying that other people haven't helped with various standards, but its very wrong to claim that large companies haven't Steve Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324989580856894788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-61493352810769707492006-11-26T12:30:00.000-07:002006-11-26T12:30:00.000-07:00"...who do you think created all those Web standar..."...who do you think created all those Web standards?" <br /><br />- well HTTP 1.1 lists Roy Fielding as an author, who's also known as the guy who first wrote down REST... I wouldn't be so quick to ridicule LAMP either, given that the 'A' has considerably more market share for web servers than your Big Four combined. <br /> <br />But ok, if you're so sure these specs will conquer all, why not Dannyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03703352768894605596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-20568028874496159242006-11-25T05:28:00.000-07:002006-11-25T05:28:00.000-07:00Engineers absolving themselves of commercial respo...Engineers absolving themselves of commercial responsibility is just the sort of thing that has got us into this position. Engineers should deliver what works and that has to include the commercial considerations rather than architectural purity. Otherwise IMO its not engineering its just amateur dramatics. <br /><br />On the "What about CORBA" line, well I remember trying to use non-CORBA Steve Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324989580856894788noreply@blogger.com