tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post556069547722861381..comments2024-02-15T22:31:01.027-07:00Comments on Business SOA: Engineering v Art the challenge of the masses v the talentSteve Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18324989580856894788noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-77564071892242185872010-06-23T05:34:46.927-07:002010-06-23T05:34:46.927-07:00It isn't a question of "can programme&quo...It isn't a question of "can programme" its a question of effectiveness. In comparison with Bill Joy then everyone's coding sucks, should everyone therefore stop? Nope, its about making people effective for their level.<br /><br />Claiming that anyone worse than you shouldn't code isn't a starting point for a debate.Steve Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324989580856894788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-16326635019224668702010-06-20T09:05:33.346-07:002010-06-20T09:05:33.346-07:00Oh boy this will never end.
People who are not a...Oh boy this will never end. <br /><br />People who are not able to program should NOT do it. End of the story. <br /><br />Giving dummies Java instead of Ruby Python you name it is the same as giving a retarded a club instead of a gun: they're still going to hurt someone, it just takes more time and more pain for the kill.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-61879182359180549412009-07-30T22:09:04.362-07:002009-07-30T22:09:04.362-07:00I believe construction of such projects requires k...I believe construction of such projects requires knowledge of engineering and management principles and business procedures, economics, and human behavior.control valveshttp://www.meaincorporated.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-34615672800241864992007-11-26T16:08:00.000-07:002007-11-26T16:08:00.000-07:00I enjoyed the comment about civil and chemical eng...I enjoyed the comment about civil and chemical engineers being "muppets" or not. It's interesting to consider: these folks are licensed for a reason: your lives are in their hands. How many programmers do you know where you'd trust your life to the correct operation of a system they'd written?<BR/><BR/>But more interesting is the misconception introduced by Steve Jones, that software development Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-18730365583823117462007-11-26T10:17:00.000-07:002007-11-26T10:17:00.000-07:00David, I agree with what you say, but I would say ...David, I agree with what you say, but I would say that the quality of people at the software companies isn't always as high as you might think, mainly (IMO) because they have a pretty limited pool of talent (those willing to live on the west coast).<BR/><BR/>Anon. Structural Engineers are a good example of what I mean. The create engineering plans of elements which are then built by people who Steve Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324989580856894788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-88008236586918041482007-11-26T08:46:00.000-07:002007-11-26T08:46:00.000-07:00Thanks for the interesting article, but I think th...Thanks for the interesting article, but I think the reason things look so bleak is exactly because you would currently compare a computer scientist to an artist. Programming shouldn't be an art form, and yet it is.<BR/><BR/>Further, there's nothing theoretically stopping software from being simpler to construct. We're constructing bridges with toothpicks and they are brittle, require tremendousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-31058095972222033042007-11-26T07:32:00.000-07:002007-11-26T07:32:00.000-07:00I don't rightly understand how someone can argue t...I don't rightly understand how someone can argue that Programming should be oriented towards engineering and then, in the same breath <B>also</B> argue that it should be capable of being achieved by people with little capacity for skilled work.<BR/><BR/>Do you think there are many Chemical or Structural Engineers that are "muppets" as you put it? If there are, I don't think they last very long.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-85740336939613458372007-11-26T05:05:00.000-07:002007-11-26T05:05:00.000-07:00If you can't trust someone to figure out your code...If you can't trust someone to figure out your code, what are you doing letting them touch it to begin with?<BR/><BR/>Those muppets you speak of should be kept away from the code. As far, far away as possible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-35155289491462448842007-11-26T02:49:00.000-07:002007-11-26T02:49:00.000-07:00This static vs. dynamic typing thing is a classic ...This static vs. dynamic typing thing is a classic case of confusing a technique with a desired result. Static typing is merely one way of quickly catching errors. There are other ways to do it, such a an automated test system combined with test-driven development, and using that doesn't require much more discipline than not declaring everything as "Object".<BR/><BR/>At least some of us using RubyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-67499825670726232182007-11-26T02:33:00.000-07:002007-11-26T02:33:00.000-07:00I find your idea comparable to the strive to liber...I find your idea comparable to the strive to libertarianism (freedom, no restrictions) vs. statism (or protectionism, paternalism).<BR/><BR/>The former is better for a society of competent, independent, lawful individuals, and the latter fits the weaker and sometimes more corrupt individuals.<BR/><BR/>Since there are all kinds of populations in society, neither is the "right" choice or path to beAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-53618231079210035782007-11-14T16:04:00.000-07:002007-11-14T16:04:00.000-07:00My opinion exactly, with different words.I've said...My opinion exactly, with different words.<BR/><BR/>I've said that bondage-and-discipline languages like Java make sense for big I.T. where you can never be sure who's going to (mis)use your code,<BR/><BR/>and dynamic languages like Python are better for small teams of "the best of the best," or one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-14092768551050060402007-11-14T14:37:00.000-07:002007-11-14T14:37:00.000-07:00"But I think this Java groups is a good cross sect..."But I think this Java groups is a good cross section of IT, it ranges from the truly talented at the stratosphere of IT down to the muppets who can't even read the APIs so write their own functions to do something like "isEmpty" on a string."<BR/><BR/>What are you saying here? How do you check for empty/null strings? Are the Commons guys muppets for writing StringUtils.isEmpty()?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-19041389550606131842007-10-31T09:50:00.000-07:002007-10-31T09:50:00.000-07:00Having used (and liked) Lisp its hard to argue tha...Having used (and liked) Lisp its hard to argue that it is a language for the average developer.... Powerful? yes.... simple? No.Steve Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324989580856894788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-11702830953271213152007-10-31T09:44:00.000-07:002007-10-31T09:44:00.000-07:00Groovy is, really, not much more than a toy that's...Groovy is, really, not much more than a toy that's been around for a few years. Let's go look at mature dynamic languages: Lisp and Smalltalk. Both of these languages have had good native code generation, IDEs, code completion, and refactoring tools for many years, even decades.Patrick Loganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02088461489050417591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-9332412639449954332007-10-31T08:33:00.000-07:002007-10-31T08:33:00.000-07:00Dude you are right on! Not only that, you can bac...Dude you are right on! Not only that, you can back yourself up with the <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution" REL="nofollow">Normal Distribution</A>. The sad fact is the majority of a population clusters around an <B>average</B>, no matter what value you want to measure. It's not <I>Art versus Engineering</I>, it's <I>Mean versus Standard Deviation</I>. As you point out, The Gassy Onehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14799233915551512512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-52111211335689142972007-10-31T05:28:00.000-07:002007-10-31T05:28:00.000-07:00I expect a good level of work from someone based o...I expect a good level of work from someone based on the level of their abilities. It would be pointless expecting me to paint the Mona Lisa as I'm crap at Art, but I can be trusted to paint a room.<BR/><BR/>Expecting good quality for a given ability is what you should aim for, not expect everyone to be able to produce the same work to the same quality.Steve Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18324989580856894788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-86546225151334554672007-10-31T04:50:00.000-07:002007-10-31T04:50:00.000-07:00Sadly no - Code completion works pretty well in Sm...Sadly no - Code completion works pretty well in Smalltalk. You guys need to take your blinders off and try something different: Actually expect good work from people. If you don't expect much, you won't get much.jaroberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17726047827425261435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-70433451086414819622007-05-15T08:40:00.000-07:002007-05-15T08:40:00.000-07:00I've been thinking about this a lot lately too, an...I've been thinking about this a lot lately too, and I agree with your points, and I'd add that the IDEs for staticly typed languages are a huge benefit as well -- something dynamicly typed languages miss out on. <BR/><BR/>I've been writing a lot of Groovy code lately, and I've found myself giving all of my variables static types so Eclipse (w/groovy plug-in) can do code completion. Then I ask Dustin Ted Whitneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17414601526967838823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168006.post-67269360784267605762007-05-11T06:46:00.000-07:002007-05-11T06:46:00.000-07:00Hmmm not sure it's engineering versus art. I cert...Hmmm not sure it's engineering versus art. I certainly consider myself an engineer, I'm fact driven, I like data points to justify my choices rather than be subjective. <BR/><BR/>Maybe what we're really talking about is more akin to parenting and trust. You don't trust a 2 year old with power tools but you'd let a skilled tradesman use whatever tools and materials they prefer so long as you PetrolHeadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06404572533828179184noreply@blogger.com